ARCO's Abolitionists - A Vegan Forum

How does one battle this? It seems to defy all reasoning of morality.

Post deleted. Reason: I think I got the wrong end of the stick.

Rivers, it would be helpful if you could be specific about the "apathy" concern. I am assuming (not a safe thing to do) that you are referring to the apparent apathy the masses have about the grotesque disrespect of humans for non-human animals. If this is the case, I don't think that apathy would be the only issue to address. Ignorance about their situation and their innate dignity may perhaps surpass apathy. (Personally, I think it does - at least here in the U.S.) Greed on many levels and false views are also root causes on the part of human animals for the lack of non-human animal rights. This could be even more overwhelming for you to conquor!

For me it is not how the ego I can transform others, but rather how can I transcend my mind machinery and operate from the highest level of integrity of my Being for non-human species. It basically is about being at cause of your experience with AR, and not operating from being at the effect of the ignorance, greed, and false views of others.

Faunus

I think "apathy" is largely rooted in learned helplessness. It's much more than simple ignorance, because even if people are knowledgeable of the situation they are not likely to act if they believe the situation is hopeless. The Greek root for apathy means "without feeling" and comes from "apathos" meaning "without suffering." If person is taught that things aren't going to change then it's makes perfect sense for that person to become numb to their feelings and the suffering of others. Basically, apathy is a survival technique for coping with learned helplessness. I don't think you can say that these people are immoral. Learned helplessness will lead the most moral and compassionate individual to become apathetic. After all, the Latin root of "compassion" means to "suffer with," including a desire to help. Learned helplessness turns feelings of compassion against the person. For the truly compassionate, feelings become unbearable once they have learned that things are helplessness.

So, back to the question, how do we cure people of apathy? Well, if apathy is a symptom of learned helplessness, then the cure would be learned helpfulness. Empowering people to take part in real, concrete change and to see themselves as part of the solution is, I think, a good start. For me, veganism is a type of learned helpfulness. Through veganism people are practicing of nonviolent direct action. Veganism as a way of learned helpfulness takes the same compassion that is poisoned under learned helplessness and makes it an energizing forces for change.

Unfortunately, many people in professional non-profits are "profiting" from manipulating compassion and promoting learned helplessness. The regulatory animal exploitation campaigns of these organizations are a perfect example of this. The key justification for these campaigns often rest on perpetuating learned helplessness. We are taught that veganism, while laudable, is a helpless cause. We are ensured by the professionals running these campaigns that since the entire world isn't going to go vegan in our lifetime that the only alternative is to support the very government bodies and industries responsible for the exploitation. The reasoning being that only these institutions can make it more "humane." (The trick of learned helplessness being to convince us that promoting alternative exploitation is "humane" when what we really want is abolition!)

Learned helplessness is in the interest of the non-profit professionals, government and industry, because if people didn't defer power to them then they would cease to exist. This is why the practice of veganism, learned helpfulness in the form of nonviolent direct action, has so much potential. If people could only learn of the power they have to make change it could spark what Donald Watson said "would be greatest peaceful revolution ever known."

Watch the video "A Tale of Power & Vision." It brilliantly illustrates how "pessimism" and "pragmatism" work to foster apathy and how "power" and "vision" can get us where we want to go.

Hi Daniel!

Thanks heaps for this most insightful posting! Now, what I need to do is connect to the links that you were so thoughtful to include, and get back with you (perhaps this weekend when time better permits).

But off the top of my head, what you shared reminds me of the "internal locus of power" vs "external locus of power" terminology that I'm familiar with. I have reason to think that our brains are in sync. Acquiescence to the belief in powerlessness can be a main issue here, although I admit speaking in abstract terms at the moment. We can get more specific regarding abolitionist veganism and apathy once I read your links. I look forward to viewing them tomorrow!

Thank you!

Faunus

Daniel wrote:I think "apathy" is largely rooted in learned helplessness. It's much more than simple ignorance, because even if people are knowledgeable of the situation they are not likely to act if they believe the situation is hopeless. The Greek root for apathy means "without feeling" and comes from "apathos" meaning "without suffering." If person is taught that things aren't going to change then it's makes perfect sense for that person to become numb to their feelings and the suffering of others. Basically, apathy is a survival technique for coping with learned helplessness. I don't think you can say that these people are immoral. Learned helplessness will lead the most moral and compassionate individual to become apathetic. After all, the Latin root of "compassion" means to "suffer with," including a desire to help. Learned helplessness turns feelings of compassion against the person. For the truly compassionate, feelings become unbearable once they have learned that things are helplessness.

Very well written.
It reminded me on one buddhistic sentence - at least the person who said it claimed that is buddhistic, but I never found in which buddhistic text is written - here is my translation: You cannot change the world, but you can change yourself, and with that you already changed the world.

We usually fell that, if I or some of us cannot change the world, system in our country or even made some changes in our local community, then it is not even worth trying. It appears that world is some kind of opposition to us/me, there is me on one side and unchangeable world on the other, or better: I just paraphrase Daniel with other words, we want to believe (in accordance with more general interests of course) that every change is impossible. But opposite is true, I am always part of this world, and with every change I made the world has changed.

Faunus wrote:For me it is not how the ego I can transform others, but rather how can I transcend my mind machinery and operate from the highest level of integrity of my Being for non-human species. It basically is about being at cause of your experience with AR, and not operating from being at the effect of the ignorance, greed, and false views of others.

Without entirely understanding this, I am still moved by it!

And while I don't know how much of apathy is comes from learned helplessness, I do agree that there's a connection. I hesitate to bring it up, but everyone else is probably thinking of it anyway - those gruesome experiments that induce a complete lack of response by conditioning the animal to believe that it can't get away from the electric shocks. I can't even recall how they do it anymore.

From a slightly different angle, I found that after being extremely restricted in what I could do while growing up, I stopped wanting things in the first place.

Wait, I'm talking about apathy regarding one's own situation. When it has to do with others, I'd just call it a lack of compassion, which as Daniel pointed out, is "suffering with" another. And I think that's out there, too, along with the compassionate who don't realize they can make a difference.

Some folks have not activated their "mirror neurons" that allow them to conceive of what it's like to be someone else.

nazarov wrote:

Daniel wrote:I think "apathy" is largely rooted in learned helplessness. It's much more than simple ignorance, because even if people are knowledgeable of the situation they are not likely to act if they believe the situation is hopeless. The Greek root for apathy means "without feeling" and comes from "apathos" meaning "without suffering." If person is taught that things aren't going to change then it's makes perfect sense for that person to become numb to their feelings and the suffering of others. Basically, apathy is a survival technique for coping with learned helplessness. I don't think you can say that these people are immoral. Learned helplessness will lead the most moral and compassionate individual to become apathetic. After all, the Latin root of "compassion" means to "suffer with," including a desire to help. Learned helplessness turns feelings of compassion against the person. For the truly compassionate, feelings become unbearable once they have learned that things are helplessness.

Very well written.
It reminded me on one buddhistic sentence - at least the person who said it claimed that is buddhistic, but I never found in which buddhistic text is written - here is my translation: You cannot change the world, but you can change yourself, and with that you already changed the world.

We usually fell that, if I or some of us cannot change the world, system in our country or even made some changes in our local community, then it is not even worth trying. It appears that world is some kind of opposition to us/me, there is me on one side and unchangeable world on the other, or better: I just paraphrase Daniel with other words, we want to believe (in accordance with more general interests of course) that every change is impossible. But opposite is true, I am always part of this world, and with every change I made the world has changed.

You worded my thoughts well, Nazarov! I went to the links that Daniel provided and really appreciated them both. Thanks so much, Daniel.

My intuition was right that this referred the internal locus of personal power to some degree - as opposed to the external locus of power from ever-changing laws, the need for law enforcement, and whatever else people falsely rely upon for progressive transformation. But I also think that inspiration is an important keynote here. Those that really inspired me in my life seem to have done so effortlessly, and even unintentionally. It is like a candle flame that lights the wick of another one, yet it subtracts nothing from itself. The question for me is, "Is the wick in a position to be lighted"? I see the greatest resistance from those dependent upon an external locus of power, or at least believing (often religiously) that someone or something else out there is where true power lies. Not good.

Daniel wrote:I think "apathy" is largely rooted in learned helplessness. It's much more than simple ignorance, because even if people are knowledgeable of the situation they are not likely to act if they believe the situation is hopeless. The Greek root for apathy means "without feeling" and comes from "apathos" meaning "without suffering." If person is taught that things aren't going to change then it's makes perfect sense for that person to become numb to their feelings and the suffering of others. Basically, apathy is a survival technique for coping with learned helplessness. I don't think you can say that these people are immoral. Learned helplessness will lead the most moral and compassionate individual to become apathetic. After all, the Latin root of "compassion" means to "suffer with," including a desire to help. Learned helplessness turns feelings of compassion against the person. For the truly compassionate, feelings become unbearable once they have learned that things are helplessness.

So, back to the question, how do we cure people of apathy? Well, if apathy is a symptom of learned helplessness, then the cure would be learned helpfulness. Empowering people to take part in real, concrete change and to see themselves as part of the solution is, I think, a good start. For me, veganism is a type of learned helpfulness. Through veganism people are practicing of nonviolent direct action. Veganism as a way of learned helpfulness takes the same compassion that is poisoned under learned helplessness and makes it an energizing forces for change.

Unfortunately, many people in professional non-profits are "profiting" from manipulating compassion and promoting learned helplessness. The regulatory animal exploitation campaigns of these organizations are a perfect example of this. The key justification for these campaigns often rest on perpetuating learned helplessness. We are taught that veganism, while laudable, is a helpless cause. We are ensured by the professionals running these campaigns that since the entire world isn't going to go vegan in our lifetime that the only alternative is to support the very government bodies and industries responsible for the exploitation. The reasoning being that only these institutions can make it more "humane." (The trick of learned helplessness being to convince us that promoting alternative exploitation is "humane" when what we really want is abolition!)

Learned helplessness is in the interest of the non-profit professionals, government and industry, because if people didn't defer power to them then they would cease to exist. This is why the practice of veganism, learned helpfulness in the form of nonviolent direct action, has so much potential. If people could only learn of the power they have to make change it could spark what Donald Watson said "would be greatest peaceful revolution ever known."

Watch the video "A Tale of Power & Vision." It brilliantly illustrates how "pessimism" and "pragmatism" work to foster apathy and how "power" and "vision" can get us where we want to go.

Great post, Daniel.

As for the apathy of non-vegans, I believe normative influences play a significant role in holding people stationary. Animal use within society is not only prevalent, but pervasive as well. Put another way... absolutely massive numbers of animals are exploited, in every every way imaginable and within every aspect of life (sport, entertainment, companionship, experimentation, clothing, and food). People maturing within this culture, quickly (and unsurprisingly) come to see animal exploitation as completely and thoroughly normal and uncontroversial. Almost like breathing.

For most, the belief in human dominance over animals is second nature to the point of being sub-conscious. Our anthropocentric perception is continually reified and normalized by what we see and hear everyday (and also don't see or hear). Non-human corpse parts are advertised on TV commercials and every other form of media, and no one says anything or seems to care. Nearly every chef, scientist, and politician blithely accepts and personally consumes non-human flesh and/or secretions without any question whatsoever, and no one says anything or seems to care. Everyone wears non-human skin or hair for comfort or fashionability, and no one says anything or seems to care. A majority dominate/own the life of one or more cute or tough non-human "pets", and no one says anything or seems to care. Dairy and eggs are simply beneficial and pleasurable commodities that people seek the best deals on or varieties of, and no one says anything or seems to care. Person-X could eat foie gras with poached eggs and a tall glass of milk while wearing a fur coat in open view at a street corner bistro. Police officers, firefighters, taxi drivers, business people, tourists, everyone who walked by... simply wouldn't care or say anything to person-X.

Amidst this type of environment, suppose a vegan or some type of vegan propaganda comes along, and manages to generates some cognitive dissonance within a non-vegan individual. Look at everything they have to fall back upon! Not only is the non-morality of animal use normative within society at large, but everyone they personally know probably internalizes and represents the societal norm. From parental figures, to siblings, to friends, to peers or coworkers, to random strangers or acquaintances... all are normative influences upon us. They can help dissipate or obfuscate the guilt of responsibility experienced by non-vegans... through the normalization of animal exploitation. Making it seem accepted/okay/normal/non-controversial/non-moral/et cetera.