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Explain Ryder's painism?

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Explain Ryder's painism?

Postby panthera » Wed Nov 21, 2007 9:32 pm

I'm confused about this term.

Painism is a term coined by Richard Ryder in 1990, being a refinement of his term sentientism. Painism became the principle upon which Ryder bases his ethics. He argues that any individual, human or other, who can experience pain, has moral standing. Such painience can be assumed in most species of animal on Earth and may be a capacity elsewhere in the universe among, for example, intelligent aliens, or even in highly developed robots and other machines. Intelligence and painience are not necessarily associated, so Ryder insists. It is possible that there are highly intelligent beings who can feel little or no pain and, vice versa, highly painient creatures who lack intelligence. Ryder defines pain as “any form of suffering or negative experience, including fear, distress and boredom, as well as corporeal pain itself. Such things as injustice, inequality and loss of liberty naturally cause pain.”


What was wrong with sentientism? Is there any meaningful difference between being sentient and being able to feel pain? The latter is just a subset of the former, I'd say. In fact I didn't know he came up with "speciesism." I thought that was Singer, but I guess he just picked up on it.

Rights can only be based upon pain — there is no other basis that makes sense psychologically.”

Although painism rejects the “addings-up” of Utilitarianism it does not reject the principle of “trading-off” the pains of one individual against the pains of another. This is the other great problem for all ethical systems, whether it is called ‘conflicting rights’ or ‘cost-benefit’. Should we cause unconsented-to pain to A in order to reduce the pain of B? Ryder’s answer is “sometimes”. He looks at ideas of consent and innocence, and at the probability, intensity, agency and duration of pains. One of theproblems of painful animal experimentation, for example, is that the pain is certain but the alleged benefits are uncertain and in the future. While acknowledging that all such cost-benefit issues are riddled with difficulties Ryder nevertheless suggests that the language of painism can help to find a way through them.


Richard Ryder's Painism
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Re: Explain Ryder's painism?

Postby truced_animal » Fri Nov 23, 2007 8:34 am

I don't like this painism.
So it's ok if I kill someone painless? I guess it's not what Ryder means but it youls be interpreted like that.
And isn't there a sickness that makess someone unable to feel pain? So they have no rights?
Pain surely is a criterion but only one. I think an interest of not being hurt is more important.
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Re: Explain Ryder's painism?

Postby rags » Fri Nov 23, 2007 1:30 pm

Ryder has always focused on pain - talked about a worldwide community of pain I think. Painism is part of RR concentration of Darwinian kinship notions of degree and not kind.

Painism seems to have had a generally negative reaction.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story ... 55,00.html

All beings that feel pain deserve human rights

Equality of the species is the logical conclusion of post-Darwin morality

Richard Ryder
Saturday August 6, 2005
The Guardian

The word speciesism came to me while I was lying in a bath in Oxford some 35
years ago. It was like racism or sexism - a prejudice based upon morally
irrelevant physical differences. Since Darwin we have known we are human
animals related to all the other animals through evolution; how, then, can
we justify our almost total oppression of all the other species? All animal
species can suffer pain and distress. Animals scream and writhe like us;
their nervous systems are similar and contain the same biochemicals that we
know are associated with the experience of pain in ourselves.

Our concern for the pain and distress of others should be extended to any
"painient" - pain-feeling - being regardless of his or her sex, class, race,
religion, nationality or species. Indeed, if aliens from outer space turn
out to be painient, or if we ever manufacture machines who are painient,
then we must widen the moral circle to include them. Painience is the only
convincing basis for attributing rights or, indeed, interests to others.

Many other qualities, such as "inherent value", have been suggested. But
value cannot exist in the absence of consciousness or potential
consciousness. Thus, rocks and rivers and houses have no interests and no
rights of their own. This does not mean, of course, that they are not of
value to us, and to many other painients, including those who need them as
habitats and who would suffer without them.

Many moral principles and ideals have been proposed over the centuries -
justice, freedom, equality, brotherhood, for example. But these are mere
stepping stones to the ultimate good, which is happiness; and happiness is
made easier by freedom from all forms of pain and suffering (using the words
"pain" and "suffering" interchangeably). Indeed, if you think about it
carefully you can see that the reason why these other ideals are considered
important is that people have believed that they are essential to the
banishment of suffering. In fact they do sometimes have this result, but not
always.

Why emphasise pain and other forms of suffering rather than pleasure and
happiness? One answer is that pain is much more powerful than pleasure.
Would you not rather avoid an hour's torture than gain an hour's bliss? Pain
is the one and only true evil. What, then, about the masochist? The answer
is that pain gives him pleasure that is greater than his pain!

One of the important tenets of painism (the name I give to my moral
approach) is that we should concentrate upon the individual because it is
the individual - not the race, the nation or the species - who does the
actual suffering. For this reason, the pains and pleasures of several
individuals cannot meaningfully be aggregated, as occurs in utilitarianism
and most moral theories. One of the problems with the utilitarian view is
that, for example, the sufferings of a gang-rape victim can be justified if
the rape gives a greater sum total of pleasure to the rapists. But
consciousness, surely, is bounded by the boundaries of the individual. My
pain and the pain of others are thus in separate categories; you cannot add
or subtract them from each other. They are worlds apart.

Without directly experiencing pains and pleasures they are not really
there - we are counting merely their husks. Thus, for example, inflicting
100 units of pain on one individual is, I would argue, far worse than
inflicting a single unit of pain on a thousand or a million individuals,
even though the total of pain in the latter case is far greater. In any
situation we should thus concern ourselves primarily with the pain of the
individual who is the maximum sufferer. It does not matter, morally
speaking, who or what the maximum sufferer is - whether human, non-human or
machine. Pain is pain regardless of its host.

Of course, each species is different in its needs and in its reactions. What
is painful for some is not necessarily so for others. So we can treat
different species differently, but we should always treat equal suffering
equally. In the case of non-humans, we see them mercilessly exploited in
factory farms, in laboratories and in the wild. A whale may take 20 minutes
to die after being harpooned. A lynx may suffer for a week with her broken
leg held in a steel-toothed trap. A battery hen lives all her life unable to
even stretch her wings. An animal in a toxicity test, poisoned with a
household product, may linger in agony for hours or days before dying.

These are major abuses causing great suffering. Yet they are still justified
on the grounds that these painients are not of the same species as
ourselves. It is almost as if some people had not heard of Darwin! We treat
the other animals not as relatives but as unfeeling things. We would not
dream of treating our babies, or mentally handicapped adults, in these
ways - yet these humans are sometimes less intelligent and less able to
communicate with us than are some exploited nonhumans.

The simple truth is that we exploit the other animals and cause them
suffering because we are more powerful than they are. Does this mean that if
those aforementioned aliens landed on Earth and turned out to be far more
powerful than us we would let them - without argument - chase and kill us
for sport, experiment on us or breed us in factory farms, and turn us into
tasty humanburgers? Would we accept their explanation that it was perfectly
moral for them to do all these things as we were not of their species?

Basically, it boils down to cold logic. If we are going to care about the
suffering of other humans then logically we should care about the suffering
of non-humans too. It is the heartless exploiter of animals, not the animal
protectionist, who is being irrational, showing a sentimental tendency to
put his own species on a pedestal. We all, thank goodness, feel a natural
spark of sympathy for the sufferings of others. We need to catch that spark
and fan it into a fire of rational and universal compassion.

All of this has implications, of course. If we gradually bring non-humans
into the same moral and legal circle as ourselves then we will not be able
to exploit them as our slaves. Much progress has been made with sensible new
European legislation in recent decades, but there is still a very long way
to go. Some international recognition of the moral status of animals is long
overdue. There are various conservation treaties, but nothing at UN level,
for example, that recognises the rights, interests or welfare of the animals
themselves. That must, and I believe will, change.

· Dr Richard Ryder was Mellon Professor at Tulane University, New Orleans,
and has been chairman of the RSPCA council; he is the author of Painism: A
Modern Morality, and his new book, Putting Morality Back into Politics, will
be published by Academic Imprint in 2006
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Re: Explain Ryder's painism?

Postby EcoTribalVegan » Fri Nov 23, 2007 3:07 pm

truced_animal wrote:I don't like this painism.
So it's ok if I kill someone painless? I guess it's not what Ryder means but it youls be interpreted like that.
And isn't there a sickness that makess someone unable to feel pain? So they have no rights?
Pain surely is a criterion but only one. I think an interest of not being hurt is more important.


Killing someone painlessly seems to be an impossibility.

1. How will we ever know if a method is completely painless unless we try it ourselves. Any dying creature is bound to feel pain of some sort (since pain is used to avert death/injury).
2. I can't even think of one way it would be painless. even injection has a the prick of the needle. And that's still not counting my first point that we don't know how the chemicals feel once inside the body.
"The time will come when men will look upon the murder of animals as they now look upon the murder of men." - Leonardo Da Vinci
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Re: Explain Ryder's painism?

Postby panthera » Fri Nov 23, 2007 3:24 pm

Exactly. And there are individual physiologies that make a big difference as well. Gauging someone else's pain, especially across a species line, is an effort fraught with peril.
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Re: Explain Ryder's painism?

Postby EcoTribalVegan » Fri Nov 23, 2007 5:32 pm

panthera wrote:Exactly. And there are individual physiologies that make a big difference as well. Gauging someone else's pain, especially across a species line, is an effort fraught with peril.


I agree with you too though. I think pain is probably the prime indicator of a sentient being. Pain is ONE of the criteria for sentience. And more creatures that feel pain exhibit other signs of sentience. I think painism is easier to determine though. Since symptoms of pain can be observed and proved. Whereas determining wants, self-awareness, reflective abilities, etc., is much harder.
"The time will come when men will look upon the murder of animals as they now look upon the murder of men." - Leonardo Da Vinci
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Re: Explain Ryder's painism?

Postby kamaleon » Sat Dec 01, 2007 10:24 pm

truced_animal wrote:Yes, Richard D Ryder influenced Peter Singer in a couple of different matters. Did you know that he came up with that word in his head whilst he was bathing? Does Archimedes ring a bell? :D


Yes. No. Did Archimedes figure out some math principle in the bath?
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Re: Explain Ryder's painism?

Postby Daniel » Sun Dec 02, 2007 8:47 pm

kamaleon wrote:Did Archimedes figure out some math principle in the bath?

Archimedes hit upon a method of determining the purity of gold when in the bath. When it happened he exclaimed, "Eureka!" which means "I have found it" in Greek. Ironically, talking about coming up with something in the bath makes one a tad less of an original thinker since it's such an awful cliche.
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Re: Explain Ryder's painism?

Postby kamaleon » Thu Dec 06, 2007 12:31 pm

Erm, does someone know what happened to my post? I see parts of it being quoted, but not the original one?
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Re: Explain Ryder's painism?

Postby panthera » Fri Dec 07, 2007 3:32 am

oh, that was my mistake. I must have hit "edit" instead of "quote" on your post. So it looks like you posted it, but it has my words in it. So sorry! :oops:
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