ARCO's Abolitionists - A Vegan Forum

a continual source of derangement, aren't they? on the one hand, I was a lacto-veg for a few years, as a way of boycotting the meat industry and reducing my carbon-footprint. But as I started looking at the animal welfare side, I started limiting myself to milk from local farms, and then from goats who were allowed to nurse their young. But then I did it. And now I'm getting less and less understanding of those who haven't.

I'm trying to see where I get caught up, not being able to say anything, to at least plant a seed of reason and compassion.

recent example: I wrote a short paper on animal rights (as opposed to animal welfare), so my English instructor knows I'm vegan. We were discussing what my next topic would be, --I INTERRUPT MYSELF TO ANNOUNCE THAT I WILL BE WRITING ABOUT MODERN DAIRY PRODUCTION. THAT WILL BE MY NEXT TOPIC. problem partly solved.

but I can't always use this solution, so I'll go on. We were discussing how some people think of animals and personhood, and she brought up the dog/pig comparison, which makes her uncomfortable when she eats pork. Then she mentioned how beautiful cows are, and I interjected how strange it is to separate such an obviously feminine, maternal being from her calf. She replied that there was a smell of fear in the air when they are being separated, and that they impatiently await the return of their calf and can tell which is theirs, etc.

Apparently she grew up near a dairy farm, and the secretary mentioned that she had grown up on one. So I realized, I have to tell them that this is no longer the case. I told them that they are not returned at all, and in fact are taken in the first 12 hours. She thought about it and replied that the farm near her must have waited until the calves were weaned, then shook her head at "factory farming." At this point I didn't have time to talk any further, to point out that the practice is universal, not limited to factory farms.

But this is a typical case, where I am stymied by "how am I going to present this" anxiety. I don't want to sound judgmental, or upset the flow of friendly dialog. But inside, I'm frustrated and indignant and just desperate to say "the right thing."

Another case: my ovo-lacto roommate knows about my vegan outreach activism, and I've asked her about her views a couple of times, especially since she's a second generation feminist. But she's stuck on the "my one quart of ORGANIC milk" is not so bad thing. I still haven't gotten to point out that organic does not equal humane, let alone that any kind of milk is exploitative. I'm anxious about undermining the cause by my presentation and the timing of it. I live in her house; if she feels that I'm being supercritical, she's not going to be inclined to think highly of vegans, who are apparently ungracious and not mindful of social contracts. I'm afraid if I try to make one point, she'll get defensive, and I'll point out that none of the cheese, ice cream, dressing, etc. that she consumes comes from a "humane" source, at which point I'm directly attacking her personal lifestyle choices.

And now that I'm an abolitionist, I don't even know if I should even bother about the "humane" angle! I know I should point it out, but concentrate on the whole speciesist attitude, but ugh, I'm just not a very socially gifted person. I have NO idea how to do that during an actual conversation, especially with people I need to maintain a relationship with.

Panthera, I can certainly relate to what you are saying! It does drive me nuts!

I have a Buddhist friend who describes herself as a "vegan" and grew-up on a farm where the animals were slaughtered before her eyes. She is one that is ultra-sensitive to even hearing about animal suffering, let alone seeing the pictures. She stopped eating meat at the age of 8. Sensitive to their suffering, she later let go of the eggs and dairy "99%" of the time. While this is good, she uses her omnivorous husband as an excuse to cheat and eat vegetarian because he will eat it if she cooks it (but not a vegan meal) - plus she is still attached to cheese.

I think positive reinforcements need to come from different directions and different people if they are to be effective sometimes. While I have to maintain a professional relationship with my horticulurist friend, I need to know my limits in trying to be encouraging while at work.

I've played around with a "dinner and a movie" idea. Like maybe invite vegetarians and potential vegans over for a great vegan meal after watching the Earthlings CD and have a group discussion about it over some wine. Just an idea.

Faunus wrote:I think positive reinforcements need to come from different directions and different people if they are to be effective sometimes. While I have to maintain a professional relationship with my horticulurist friend, I need to know my limits in trying to be encouraging while at work.

yes, I'm sure it's more effective to be a good example, available to talk if they're curious, and maybe an occasional invitation to reflect on things. Although sometimes I wonder if I oughtn't try to be more vocal even if it doesn't fit into regular social conventions, since we want to change social conventions radically!

Faunus wrote:I've played around with a "dinner and a movie" idea. Like maybe invite vegetarians and potential vegans over for a great vegan meal after watching the Earthlings CD and have a group discussion about it over some wine. Just an idea.

This would be awesome if you could get people to actually watch it. I personally don't think I could do that. Especially because I don't know very many people, so anybody who agreed would be in a very stressful position. But if you could manage it, I'm sure it would change more than a few human lives, and hundreds of non-human ones!

I can't discuss animal rights in my own house because my girlfriend is so sensitive about the issue. She's a true blue vegan but can't hear a word about animal suffering or she start's crying or something. I think I'll leave labels on the food that her dad eats so she won't have to hear about it but he gets the message!

It's extra cruel that he buys those things because it hurts his daughter to see them in the fridge and the dirty washing up in the sink which she is loathed to touch (I do it most of the time so she won't have to.) He eventually agreed to go vegetarian but shortly relapsed, and although he eats almost lacto-vegetarian at the moment. I started a discussion about dairy with him and he's like 'well I don't think I will look at that article (52 good reasons to give up dairy) because I don't want to give it up'.

This attitude really frustrates me. Does anyone have any good advice about how to breach the subject without upsetting the misses and getting the point across without getting him all defensive?

Hi Rivers!

I don't think that strong confrontation will work effectively in most situations, but I'm not an absolutist about this. Most of the time it simply backs people into a corner and doesn't give them a chance to change their mind; their entire response gets to be about protecting their ego's position rather than thinking about what we are trying to communicate. I have found it most effective (especially with people I know) to "plant seeds" and talk about why I am vegan, not why they should be. Then, reinforcing the AR position at every chance I get (and there are lot of opportunities to do so), they usually begin to ask questions.

However, in the past I have found my razor-sharp tongue responding to antagonists by saying, "My ethics are not dicatated by my stomach or taste buds. Are yours"? Having abolitionist veganism as my baseline for ethics, omnivorous habits are the very first thing I confront especially when religious goody-goodies want to have me "saved by the lord jesus christ". That shuts their mouth up rather quickly, and they know better than to do their 'holier than thou' narcissism act with this guy. Being repulsed by the religious arrogance of evangelicals, I don't want to approach others in the manner so repulsive to me.

Just my thoughts for now.

Faunus

Faunus wrote:I don't think that strong confrontation will work effectively in most situations, but I'm not an absolutist about this. Most of the time it simply backs people into a corner and doesn't give them a chance to change their mind; their entire response gets to be about protecting their ego's position rather than thinking about what we are trying to communicate. I have found it most effective (especially with people I know) to "plant seeds" and talk about why I am vegan, not why they should be. Then, reinforcing the AR position at every chance I get (and there are lot of opportunities to do so), they usually begin to ask questions.

That's good advice faunus. Meaningful conversation requires one to be open and responsive to others. The same applies when having conversations about veganism.

Thanks for your response, James!

One thing I think is best to keep in mind is never to underestimate the power of another person who may potentially become transformed by the message they got from you, and their ability to transform. It can be years down the road when suddenly after many experiences transpire in their life and all of the coordinates are in place - your message ignites a flame of a new enlightened behaviour, fueled from the accumulating and unwanted gases of personal bullshit. (The brain stores far more information than what we are consciously aware of). This has happend to me on several occasions, even remembering the words of an unimposing, rather taciturn Buddhist monk who spoke to me in 1978 with a very potent one liner, and a shool teacher from 6th grade whose words I still remember. But the potent messages only became alive again when, and quite vitally so, when my Being was wanting to bust through with its vitality and integrity. These memories and later powerful emotional experiences are the results of "seeds" burried under all the bullshit that can be quite good fertiliser.

As a horticulturist and now an unabashed abolitionist vegan, I strongly suggest that we all keep planting seeds.

Faunus

Beautiful message!

(and funny. one's own manure is the only fertilizer used in this type of agriculture!)

Faunus wrote:It can be years down the road when suddenly after many experiences transpire in their life and all of the coordinates are in place - your message ignites a flame of a new enlightened behaviour

I think it is always important to keep this in mind when advocating veganism. I often here people say, "But what about if people are unresponsive to veganism?," as though if people don't transform on the spot, before our very eyes, then we have to give up our vegan advocacy and instead extol the "virtues" of "humane" animal products. But as you point out, Faunus, change takes time. When we rashly give up on vegan advocacy, we effectively extinguish people's motivations to change because we do not give them anything to aspire to.

And I concur with panthera's judgment on your post, Faunus. Excellent stuff

I think another thing worth considering is that if abolitionist veganism is essentially an ethical issue, we need to appeal to the ethical potential of people we share the message with, or strike that note in them. Most people think of themselves as ethical (and would probably say they are readily if you asked them), but the concept of abolitionism and veganism is totally new. Several times I used conversation whose content was in the content of ethics/morality - and it became my prime opportunity to include non-human beings. Aah! I get a much better response when I do a little "smooching" or pamper their ego acknowledging that they are an "ethical, decent person", if only in their own eyes. Then the art of linguistic engineering comes in to include the non-human animals and invite them to consider veganism after briefly explaining what I mean. Actually, I relate to them my confidence that they can extend their sense of reason and compassion to the "gentle creatures", and it's amazing the response you can get when it is totally non-confrontational. I automatically ask them open-ended questions to get them to talk about themselves too, and use my best listening skills. That's the start of communication in a one-on-one basis.

This is such a completely difference and more effective approach than the "I'm ethical/you are not", "I'm right/you are wrong", etc. tactics that I see welfarist engage in all the time. Really, how would you like it if someone approached you with assumed moral superiority - and made you feel like "you just ain't got the message yet"? It's a real conversation stopper! And you know me, I am so appalled by the infestation of fundies and evangelicals here that are everwhere I turn. Therefore, I would never want to adopt their illusion of moral superiority to deliver an AR message. Rather, I prefer to appeal to the real or potential ethical fibre of the omnivore who is must probably just in the dark. Experience shows that this is the most effective general approach.