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Martin Balluch and Gary Francione

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Martin Balluch and Gary Francione

Postby Jose Valle » Wed Apr 16, 2008 3:29 pm

Martin Balluch has published an article entitled Abolitionism vs reformism
http://www.vgt.at/publikationen/texte/a ... dex_en.php

Gary Francione replied with A “Very New Approach” or Just More New Welfarism?
http://www.abolitionistapproach.com/?p=140

and Martin Balluch published a reply to Francione Comment: Abolitionism versus Reformism
http://www.vgt.at/publikationen/texte/a ... dex_en.php

Please, comment your thoughts about all this.
Putting abolition and antispeciesism into practice:
http://www.animalequality.net
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Re: Martin Balluch and Gary Francione

Postby Karin » Fri Apr 18, 2008 8:06 pm

Thank you for posting this, Jose. I have followed the exchange, and if I am to comment on it, the briefest way to put it it would be: I disagree with Balluch in his arguments as well as with regard to his claim that he has provided a "new approach". As far as I'm aware, neither denying the connection between theory and practice – Balluch calls it there philosophically being a gulf, but psychologically and politically a continuum between animal rights and animal welfare – nor the idea that animal industry is the "enemy" which needs to be fought by animal advocates is particularly new in the rights/welfare controversy.

The same applies to Balluch's assumptions about what kind of creatures humans are, about human nature, so to speak, assumptions which he refers to as "psychological facts" and as "basic knowledge on human psychology". A participant in a thread on vegan.at calls this, very aptly in my view, what can be best translated as "crude psychology". Arguing that humans are not amenable to reasoning since they are, for example, just evil or irrational, or, in Balluch's version, "far more social than rational creatures" is typically constitutive of a conservative mindset and a reactionary ideology: according certain empirical data the status of something like a law of nature. Apart from that, the inherent but unintentional irony of this way of thinking is that what it assumes would have to apply to the author himself which means that he would be bereft of credibility – provided that his arguments are meant to be addressing rationality – simply for belonging to a species of supposedly more social than rational creatures.

To me, the most striking observation concerning Balluch's initial essay as well as his reply to Gary is that the former profoundly fails to understand the latter. The most obvious example of this failure is one of the points Balluch makes twice, because he does not find it to be addressed by Gary: the alleged analogy between animal welfare reformist activities and the support of animal rights prisoners which aims at improving conditions (to ban isolation cells, to provide vegan food):
Such campaigning must be called reformist and not abolitionist by any standards, but nevertheless, radical abolitionists will not disapprove. Nobody asks, surprisingly, whether such campaigns do not legitimize incarceration of animal activists in the minds of the public, and whether their success in achieving better prison conditions will not serve to strengthen the habit in society to lock up activists, who have liberated animals.

Perhaps more than anything else, the passage above shows that Balluch, even though he is obviously aware of the issue of animals' property status, ignores the difference between imprisoned humans who enjoy basic and civil rights, on the one hand, and confined nonhumans who are regarded and treated as things, resources, commodities, on the other hand. There is nothing "surprising" about the fact that abolitionists assess and deal with different cases differently.

To illustrate his position, Balluch gives another example of analogizing two fundamentally different things: driving a car and not being vegan.
I suppose Francione agrees that driving cars is ethically problematic. After all, cars not just seriously pollute the environment, they destroy the countryside due to the demand for tarmac-roads, they contribute to climate change, they kill an endless amount of animals including humans every year and they are one of the primary reasons for the damaging trade in oil. Hence, it would be clearly ethically better not to drive a car. I agree. But I still do. And, I guess, Francione does too. I drive a car, because it would be such an energy consuming lifestyle not to. But I would be immediately ready to stop driving a car, if car driving was banned, i.e. if all others stopped as well. If they do not stop and only I do, then I would not feel that my sacrifice of not using one would be worth the effort. So, if the system changed and it became easy to live without a car, I would be the first one to join that move and be very happy about it. Why should that be any different for most people regarding system changes towards veganism?

Last year, I heard Paul Shapiro, Factory Farm Campaign Manager of the HSUS, in a podcast argue similarly with regard to hybrid cars:
(I)f you look at the environmental movement... do you see environmentalists saying, well, we shouldn’t have hybrid cars, because they still pollute and they still contribute to greenhouse gases that lead to global warming, ..they may pollute less but they still pollute, so we should oppose them, we shouldn’t say that this a step in the right direction. Would environmentalists prefer that people didn’t drive or they didn’t use any type of fossil fuels? Probably so, but they do not ...say, oh, hybrids just make people feel better about driving, so let’s oppose all hybrids. For people who drive, driving a hybrid is a good step in the right direction... that ought to be supported.

These expositions were made in order to support the welfarist happy meat agenda, to explain why, according to Shapiro, consuming more "humanely" produced animal products is a step in the right direction, and why animal advocates should not discourage people from taking this step by advocating veganism only.
Now, whatever ethical issue car driving involves, it is of a different kind than the ethical issue of nonveganism in that the latter is inherently morally wrong, because it constitutes a rights violation – the violation of the right of sentient beings not to be used as resources, things, commodities – whereas the former is not. There is no direct moral obligation towards anybody not to drive a car, but there is a direct moral obligation towards every sentient being to be vegan. Driving a car, however detrimental to the environment and accountable for how many accidents, is as such not a violation of anybody's rights. It is typical of consequentialist thinking to ignore this crucial difference, and Shapiro's explicit attempt to justify the promotion of more "humane" forms of animal exploitation is implied no less in Balluch's pseudo-analogy which becomes clear all the more given that his association actively promotes happy meat/ animal products.

Balluch insists on the discrepancy between people's thinking that battery farming is wrong, and their still buying battery eggs as proving the futility of education. Indeed, this discrepancy is perfectly suited to illustrate the futility of welfarist, i. e. non-abolitionist education which deals with treatment/ cruelty as the moral issue, thereby reinforcing the notion that there is nothing inherently wrong with using animals, no matter the treatment. As long as the property paradigm with regard to animals is not being challenged, using nonhumans appears not only as justified but as something normatively called for, due to the purpose of property to maximize overall social wealth. In the light of conflicting societal values – treating animals "humanely" and using property for maximizing economic benefit – the latter will almost unavoidably prevail. The same kind of conflict accounts for the discrepancy between people's being aware that not or less driving a car would be better in a number of respects, and their not practically complying with this awareness, due to considerations of personal socioeconomic benefits of driving a car.

Contrary to welfarist outreach, abolitionist education maintains veganism as a moral baseline, the bare minimum that has to be done to take animal interests seriously. Unlike not driving a car, being vegan is a moral imperative which does not conflict with any other norm or value. Someone who understands veganism as morally imperative, not merely as a (more or less) desirable option (among others), will act accordingly, keep to it, and not "go with the flow" when it becomes "inconvenient" to be vegan. But to get people to understand the issue is exactly what welfarism fails to achieve.

No, Balluch's approach is not new in any significant respect, even though he argues on the ground of what he seemingly considers the "Austrian model" of reformism, scientifically supported – by intellectually reducing highly complex economic and political processes to the laws of gravity, according to which people like balls or stones roll back or move away from the "troughs" of social and moral norms; this is just another version of a kind of approach to societal issues which frames ideology in scientific terms and patterns, thereby giving it a supposed plausibility that fails to pass critical assessment.
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Re: Martin Balluch and Gary Francione

Postby panthera » Sat Apr 19, 2008 6:24 am

Here are some notes of my own on the initial essay. I'll like to read the other two and add comments a little later.

Say, we want to gain some land from the shallow sea to establish new living space. Trying to change people’s minds is like trying to remove the water from the sea with a spoon. You might succeed in removing some drops, but the larger picture will not change. You could never have enough people removing water with spoons to actually get the land dry. A system change now would be for example to drive in with a digger and to build a dam. Now the water in our area is isolated from the water in the sea. The system is changed. We don’t have to remove the water now, we just let nature take its course. And after so and so long, the water will have dried out and we can use the land. The system change did not remove single drops, but it led to a lasting change of the whole.


Analogies are only meant to be taken so far, of course, but this one points out a huge oversight. Building a dam in order to isolate the visible water in your area from the visible water in the sea is destined to fail. Even if the water in your area evaporated from the surface during a dry spell, it would continue to seep upwards through the earth, ruining your building far before the inevitable flood breeches the dam.

Going into a system (a shoreline) and using strong but limited measures to restrict it (a dam) usually fails because the system is so much more powerful and complex that it easily works around such obstacles. I expect the same to apply to animal exploitation.


Permanently you spend more time and energy than you would have to otherwise, and that must erode the original motivation of the most strong-willed person. ...And in addition, albeit you invest so much, you do not seem to get anything back! The amount of animals slaughtered does not decrease and society does not seem to change even a tiny bit.


As far as not getting anything back, I think the tranquility of not supporting animal exploitation is pretty sweet.


Image
If someone develops towards using organic free-range animal products only, or even vegetarianism or veganism, then s/he moves to the right. It also goes upwards in this direction, and if you want to stay there, or develop even further to the right, then you need an increasing amount of energy input. Those, who cannot sustain that energy loss, who lose the motivation to invest so much and constantly swim upstream, will simply roll back. If you go with the flow, you end up square in the trough and consume factory farmed animal products like everybody else. Its by far the easiest and least time consuming way to live.


Certainly, Balluch has been vegan (or should I say “vegan”) and in animal advocacy for far, far longer than I, but my impression is that once you’re vegan, it doesn’t take such constant struggling to stay vegan. I’ve disagreed with some others regarding how we characterize veganism as being easy or difficult, and I say it doesn’t serve us to deny that it can be difficult in the beginning. But surely once the learning/re-socializing curve is past, it can’t be that bad, even for the laziest! To not be vegan, on the other hand, would surely be energy-draining to the nth degree.


As far as strategy, I find his argument confusing in that he seems to be saying that (1) Austria, as a result of welfare legislation, is much closer to animal rights than it used to be; and (2) nations with welfare laws are closer to animal rights than those without such laws.

If becoming critically aware of the aspects of particular animal abuse in animal agriculture, and supporting animal welfare per se, are psychological preconditions for individuals to move on to animal rights, it is to be expected that societies with higher animal welfare standards will have larger animal rights movements, more animal rights thinking will prevail and more vegan options will be available. And societies with much less animal welfare standards should show the opposite tendency. And indeed, that is the case. European countries like England, Sweden or Austria have high animal welfare standards and a thriving animal rights movement. On the other hand, countries with very little animal welfare like China seem quite disinterested in all animal issues and veganism as an ethical choice is unknown.


To be honest, I know very little about evaluating societies and political systems. And the only indicator that I know of that is relevant to AR is the prevalence of veganism. Europe in general probably is closer than Asia, so I’ll accept (2). But of (1) he says,

The first ethical vegetarian restaurant opened in 1878 in Austria. Since then, and especially around 1900, there were many individuals and groups, who tried to turn people towards a plant-based diet. But, with all their efforts, they failed, up until today. 130 years of campaigning for humans becoming vegetarian or vegan did have no large impact on society.


So then Austria is not much closer than it used to be, correct?

I guess his point is that Austria is now in a better position for veganism to flourish, since its society is becoming, through no choice of its own, less tied to certain forms of animal exploitation.

So a reader would ask, is this true, or did it just accept these particular changes because people weren’t very tied to them? Are such changes actually edging successive generations toward a less speciesistic attitude, even though they don’t particularly want to be edged that way? If so, how were these changes brought about, independent of widespread support?

Balluch seems to be saying that specific, targeted protests can cause enough trouble to weaken certain businesses substantially, at which point laws can be expeditiously passed, and then the public will simply adjust, whether or not they approve. And soon enough, they will find that they do approve. At which point the next wave of protests can tackle the newly formed boundaries.

The campaign against wild animal circuses in Austria was directed against the circuses themselves, only marginally towards the public. The tactic was to permanently protest outside each and every show of all wild animal circuses in Austria, in order to spoil the fun of visitors of the circus. This confrontational approach very soon led to an escalation of the conflict. The circuses resorted to violence and physically assaulted many activists on a number of occasions, sometimes very seriously and premeditatedly. The movement retaliated with 3 arson attacks. In addition, the circuses started a number of law suits against the campaign, while the activists reported breaches of any regulations to the authorities. After 6 years, every single wild animal circus had gone bankrupt. he government had not reacted so far, since the conflict never reached societal proportions, neither the public nor the media did take much notice.
At the end there were no wild animal circuses left. And without any opposition, it was easy to introduce a ban. By weakening and eventually completely destroying animal industries in this conflict, a ban and a lasting system change was achieved.
...
But the effects of the system change go even further than that. Already now, media have started to report negatively on foreign wild animal circuses. The rules of socialisation, as sketched above, imply that after 1 or 2 generations have grown up in a society where wild animal circuses have been banned for ethical reasons, their attitudes change as well. Wild animal circuses start to be considered as animal abuse of times gone past, when there was much less respect for animals. Such an opinion we find ever more frequently in Austria today.


Presumably, the next wave would involve animal circuses in general. Would the public be more or less willing to take on that possibility? But, oh, I forgot. It doesn’t matter what the general public thinks.
At that time, the majority of people probably didn’t care either way, but of the remaining minority, a majority surely supported wild animal circuses and saw no reason why to find this tradition unethical. Media, similarly, reported favourably on those circuses.


However in the case of the battery-egg ban, they did rely on public support, since clearly they couldn’t just spoil people’s fun by protesting outside, as in the case of the circuses. They did need public support, so that they could wield political pressure.

activists started to disrupt all conservative election rallies and organized an anti-conservative campaign with the clear message: those voting conservative vote for battery farms. At the height of this conflict, on the day before the election in one province, the head of the conservative party jumped from the stage where he was holding his last election speech and attacked a nearby animal rights activist, punched him in the face and ripped his banner. On the next day, it was headline news in all newspapers: conservative party leader punched animal activist! And the conservative party did lose 50% of the votes in this election!


The following makes me wonder how Balluchian activists would fare in the US:

Since animal industries are very powerful and influential, politically, a system change against their will is very difficult, but possible. It is very important to distinguish at this point between animal industries, which are the enemies of change, the public as an observer, whose sympathies both sides are wooing for, and the government, the judge so to speak, who both sides try to impress with their political pressure.


Most individuals in the government are financed by animal industries, so “a system change against their will” is more than “very difficult.” And in fact since so much of the public works in those very industries, or in industries that rely on them, their sympathies are difficult to “woo.” More significantly, though, it is the very fact that the public is paying those industries, specifically in order to keep them in business, that a politically driven system change is meaningless.

…the only enemy in the political conflict to achieve animal rights is the animal industries. Without them, animal rights would be reality.


This is one of the more bizarre statements I have seen recently. :?:
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Re: Martin Balluch and Gary Francione

Postby Gary L. Francione » Sat Apr 19, 2008 10:24 am

I agree with much of what Karin and Panthera have said. Balluch's essay is a mess of confused and contradictory ideas. His response to my essay is even more confused and consists primarily in bare assertions (not arguments) that I am wrong. This is typical new welfarist rhetoric: claim that regulation will lead to abolition and when confronted with empirical evidence to the contrary, ignore it and continue to claim that regulation will lead to abolition.

In any event, I would like to clarify something.

Balluch claims continually that I am promoting education on an individual basis. Although I certainly do a great deal of that, I do a great deal of teaching on a large scale basis. Indeed, I have just returned from France where, in a space of three days, I talked to two groups (total: 70 people) and did an interview for an organization that has its programming on 10 satellite channels in 10 different languages.

I think one-on-one is important, but it is not the only way that we can educate and I have never said to the contrary.

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Re: Martin Balluch and Gary Francione

Postby James » Sat Apr 19, 2008 5:04 pm

Francione claims that there has never been proper vegan campaigning, in contrast, that animal welfare reforms have been around for 200 years, and that shows they do not work. I have answered this in my essay already. In brief: there has been, and still is, a lot of vegan campaigning. In Austria since 130 years. It is obviously never enough, but it has been done, for a very long time, and still it did not have any results on a global scale. I personally, for example, have co-founded the Austrian vegan society (http://www.vegan.at) and have been investing a lot of time in vegan outreach. Consumption of animal products per head is still at an all time high.


Consumption of animal products is at an all time high in the context of welfarism’s being the dominant response to the problem of animal exploitation. Balluch claims that the burden of proof is on abolitionists to show that these two things – welfarist campaigns and the consumption of animal products – are related. But clearly, it is wildly counterintuitive to suppose that if you tell someone that animal exploitation is being conducted “humanely,” or if you tell them that they can be “conscientious omnivores,” then this will not make them feel better about their consumption of animal products and, thereby, facilitate contained animal exploitation. Clearly, since their claim is prima facie extremely intuitive and plausible the burden of proof is not an abolitionists. It is, rather, on welfarists, whose claim – that welfarism does not facilitate continued exploitation – is prima facie extremely implausible.

Second: I don't see the sense in doing surveys to investigate things that are extremely counterintuitive, especially since resources are very limited.

Third: I think Bob Torres, who is a sociologist, said that it would be pointless to do empirical surveys as you could basically frame them in such a way as to come up with any answer you want.

Fourth: it is simply empirically false to claim that vegan outreach has always been central to the “animal rights” movement’s campaigning. It has always marginalized veganism in favor of welfarist campaigns; the former has always been adulterated by the latter. Since, as an empirical matter, the new welfarist movement has never made vegan outreach its primary mode of campaigning, it is difficult to see how Balluch can intelligibly claim that, as an empirical matter, vegan outreach has failed.

Fifth: welfarists characterize veganism in pejorative terms, saying that it’s “fanatical,” etc. Do we also need to do empirical studies to see whether a movement which claims that veganism is “fanatical,” whereas “conscientious omnivorism” is achievable by everyone and is, in fact, all we need to do to discharge our moral obligations to animals, conditions unresponsiveness to veganism and, thereby, facilitates continued exploitation? Anyone who claims that we do is claiming something that is extremely counterintuitive and, as such, the burden is on them to prove their claim. At any rate, the burden is not on abolitionists.

Imagine the anti-slavery movement as doing nothing but trying to persuade one slave owner after the other through friendly talk to voluntarily stop using slaves. What a ludicrous idea!


Ironically, by not making veganism a moral imperative – an obligation binding on everyone – it is in fact the new welfarist movement that makes the abolition of animal slavery something voluntary. Veganism is, for welfarists, merely one way of reducing suffering among others.

Second: no disagrees that we have to eradicate animal slavery both from our lives individually (veganism) and from society as a general, socio-political matter. But it is idle to try to do the latter in the absence if the former – in the absence of a critical mass of vegans that would make our demands powerful – for there is no intelligible possibility that we could do so. Why would the government ban something that is central to the economy in the absence of mass popular calls for it and, conversely, in the teeth of mass popular opposition to it? Why would the government accede to the demands of a movement that, because of the lack of vegans, is merely an eccentric voice crying into the wind? I can think of no intelligble reason how we could ban the consumption of animal products in the absence of a social paradigm shift toward abolition. The latter is, in short, a necessary precondition of the former.

But Francione further overlooks the fact that if those rich animal welfare societies with their donations were to use that money for other purposes than it has been given to them for, they would soon loose all support.
So we should do what doesn’t work because the public supports what doesn’t work?
Francione claims that it is unclear how anyone should move ideologically from welfare to rights, since those ideas are so fundamentally different. I have dealt with that question in detail in my essay. Philosophically, yes, there is a big gulf between the two, but psychologically there is a continuum.


Some thoughts on the idea that there is a continuum between welfare and rights:

Why would rightists not say that welfarists' compassion for animals is genuine? It is because welfarists do not treat animals as constituting a distinctive kind of limit to their wills.

Why would rightists say that their compassion for animals is genuine? It is because rightists do treat animals as constituting a distinctive kind of limit to their wills.

Therefore, rightists sympathies for animals are morally-conditioned -- they are conditioned by the (moral) idea that animals constitute a distinctive kind of limit to their wills -- whereas welfarists' sympathies are not morally-conditioned.

Therefore, since we cannot get to a morally-conditioned disposition by extending a disposition that is not morally-conditioned, we cannot get to rights merely by extending welfarist sympathies for animals.

It is a very rare occasion that a person becomes vegan after hearing theoretical animal rights philosophical arguments. Its suffering and the feeling of compassion that moves people, i.e. animal welfare, to turn to animal rights. That’s because humans are social and rather not rational animals.


This is clearly a false dichotomy.

one more reason why the boycott aspect of veganism is negligible: any one person turning vegan does not change the amount of animals being used and killed at all


It hardly follows, from the fact one person’s becoming may not affect the numbers of animals being used and killed, that veganism as such is useless. It isn’t even intelligble to claim that if there was no demand for animal products (i.e. if we lived in a vegan world) we would still have institutionalized and industrial-scale animal exploitation, as there would be nothing to would sustain it.

The animal farming lobby is politically unbelievably powerful. When avian flue reduced the amount of chicken meat being bought by a large percentage, it was governments, who just bought the meat and burned it, until the food scare was over.
There are many examples of when animal industries were gone, consumer “demand” was gone, like with the ban on wild animal circuses, or when pate fois gras or rabbit meat was taken from the shelves in all supermarkets, or when battery eggs or fur was not being sold anymore. Animal industries cannot change to other products. They can only go bankrupt. The trade on the other hand can change, they do not care what they sell, and politicians can change, if they feel being driven towards that. But for animal industries, fighting the animal rights movement is like fighting for survival. And these industries have much more financial power to advertise for their products and create demands, than the animal rights movement could counter that with vegan propaganda. So, at first animal industries have to be killed, then the change to veganism and animal rights will come by itself.


For it to be plausible that demand would for disappear in the way that Balluch describes it would have to be the case that the only reason people consumed animal products was because of the way the animal industries try to manufacture demand for them (through advertising, etc.) But although it is true that people may buy more animal products that they actually need to satisfy their hunger, or that they may pay too much for animal products, because of the animal industries advertising etc., it is hardly the case that this is the only reason people want to consume animal products. When I was nonvegan I liked cheese. I may have sometimes paid too much for cheese or bought too much of it, and that no doubt was the result of the animal industries advertising, etc. But I did not eat cheese only because of the animal use industries advertising. I also liked cheese. Balluch’s claim is a bit like saying that, if we abolished the washing machine industry, people would no longer want to wash their clothes. The general point is that there are reasons why people want to consume animal products that are intelligible independently of the way the animal industries try to manufacture and sustain demand. If this is true then we have to address, not only the animal use industries, but also the public's desire to consume animal products, which is, as I said, intelligible independently of the way the animal industries manufacture demand for animal products. And the only way to do that is through vegan outreach.

Second: Balluch's reductive analysis of human behavior seriously misunderstands the cultural significance of food. For example, it is wildy implausible to suppose that people's desire to eat turkey at Christmas would simply disappear if the government decreed that the animal use industries were not allowed to exploit turkeys. His reductive analysis is, I think, just plain wrong as a general matter. Many of the things we do, we do simply because of the sense they make for us. The fact that we bury our dead (for example) is not underwritten by anything in our biology. We do it simply because of the sense it makes for us. But on Balluch's analysis, if the government levied a tax on coffins that made them prohibitively expensive, our desire to bury our dead would presumably just disappear.

Miscellaneous
Francione also claims that a hen in a free range rearing system fares no better in her individual life quality than a hen in a battery cage. Firstly, I say very clearly that I find free range farming animal abuse for many reasons, and I do not endorse it. I think veganism is the only ethical option. But having said that, it is rather ludicrous to suggest that a hen in a free range system suffers equally to a hen in a battery cage. While it is true that the killing of male chicks and the transport of spent hens to the slaughterhouse and the slaughter itself are no different between the two production systems, there are very significant differences as well. At least in Austria, a free range hen is not debeaked, not force molted, has much more space to move in the barn than in a cage, has a nest for herself with nesting material, a pole high up to roost on, natural floor to scratch and dust bathe in, and a roof covered outside area during snow cover. Free range hens in Austria have often unlimited access to outside pastures. They do not get their wings clipped, hence they can fly off if they like as far as they want to, sit in the sun or sit on a tree. And sometimes they do. And come back in the evening. There is no cannibalism in free range hen systems in Austria. It is frankly quite ridiculous to compare this situation for the individual hen with being crammed 5 to a bare, tiny wire cage in a stuffy, windowless shed.


The point is surely that if animal exploitation cannot be morally justified irrespective if how “humane” it is, then it is idle to claim that some forms of exploitation are more “humane,” or “better”, than others.
Last edited by James on Sun Apr 20, 2008 6:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Martin Balluch and Gary Francione

Postby rags » Sun Apr 20, 2008 11:37 am

I think the base of Balluch's position is unsound. I simply do not believe that there has been decades of vegan campaigning in Austria.

It seems obvious that a society of rapists would respond to the notion of 'gentle raping' far more readily than 'no raping', if it felt inclined to move on such issues in the first place. However, no-one should assume that a response to the former moves society to the acceptance of the latter. It stands to reason that the initial response to gentle raping norms would at least in part be predicated on making practice socially acceptable.

Balluch displaying the general poverty of ambition of new welfarism assuming, like Marcus, that some will be totally deaf to appeals for change while many may be persuaded to move in baby steps. Effectively, Ballach takes that old 'realist' line about asking for all or nothing and getting nothing.

RY
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Re: Martin Balluch and Gary Francione

Postby NathanSchneider » Sun Apr 20, 2008 4:50 pm

rags wrote:Balluch displaying the general poverty of ambition of new welfarism assuming, like Marcus, that some will be totally deaf to appeals for change while many may be persuaded to move in baby steps. Effectively, Ballach takes that old 'realist' line about asking for all or nothing and getting nothing.


This is what stood out to me. The message is very cynical and pessimistic; completely discounts the human potential for transformation. He all but says that advocating veganism is hopeless and a waste of time, and that being vegan is not sustainable for anyone but the select few. This view certainly stands in stark contrast with his own efforts to promote veganism. His idea that it doesn't really matter what the masses think or do in their personal lives, while a small elite group of activists try to go to battle with the exploitive industries, is not remotely new or interesting. That is already the norm, and frankly, it is absurd.

The elite group of activists incur a tremendous opportunity cost waging a campaign, that exploitive industries can counter with a negligible expense of their own. The result is minor tweaks of our relationship with nonhumans, that do not recognize nonhumans' inherent value, and are difficult to enforce or oversee. All the while, onlookers feel better about their compliance with the status quo, because it appears that something is being done, and speciesism is entrenched further because nonhumans remain instrumentalities.

Furthermore, the notion that we can significantly "weaken" exploitive industries without a base of humans opposed to exploitation, is silly. His idea that the public will feel sympathy for the "animal rights movement" (read: elite new welfarist utilitarians) as they battle industries that provide their food, entertainment, clothing, et cetera... which Balluch doesn't believe they will ever be willing to electively shun, is not convincing. Without a sizable portion of the public that rejects nonhumans as instruments/means, the best they can hope for is that the public will support minor tweaks of husbandry that serve to ease consciences.

I currently view the battle not between animal rights activists and those responding to demand for exploitation, but between animal rights activists and the hearts and minds of those who demand exploitation.
Last edited by NathanSchneider on Sun Apr 20, 2008 6:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Martin Balluch and Gary Francione

Postby rags » Sun Apr 20, 2008 5:48 pm

NathanSchneider wrote:
rags wrote:Balluch displaying the general poverty of ambition of new welfarism assuming, like Marcus, that some will be totally deaf to appeals for change while many may be persuaded to move in baby steps. Effectively, Ballach takes that old 'realist' line about asking for all or nothing and getting nothing.


This is what stood out to me. The message is very cynical and pessimistic; completely discounts the human potential for transformation. He all but says that advocating veganism is hopeless and a waste of time, and that being vegan is not sustainable for anyone but the select few. This view certainly stands in stark contrast with his own efforts to promote veganism. His idea that it doesn't really matter what the masses think or do in their personal lives, while a small elite group of activists try to go to battle with the exploitive industries, is not remotely new or interesting. That is already the norm, and frankly, it is absurd.

The elite group of activists incur a tremendous opportunity cost waging a campaign, that exploitive industries can counter with a negligible expense of their own. The result is minor tweaks of our relationship with nonhumans, that do not recognize nonhumans' inherent value, and are difficult to enforce or oversee. All the while, onlookers feel better about their compliance with the status quo, because is appears that something is being done, and speciesism is entrenched further because nonhumans remain instrumentalities.

Furthermore, the notion that we can significantly "weaken" exploitive industries without a base of humans opposed to exploitation, is silly. His idea that the public will feel sympathy for the "animal rights movement" (read: elite new welfarist utilitarians) as they battle industries that provide their food, entertainment, clothing, et cetera... which Balluch doesn't believe they will ever be willing to electively shun, is not convincing. Without a sizable portion of the public that rejects nonhumans as instruments/means, the best they can hope for is that the public will support minor tweaks of husbandry that serve to ease consciences.

I currently view the battle not between animal rights activists and those responding to demand for exploitation, but between animal rights activists and the hearts and minds of those who demand exploitation.


Yes - very nicely put. Of course we do not have to look far in order to understand rather than agree with new welfarism. They are not shy of alluding to membership numbers and that means long-term careers for many of these movement 'leaders'. It appears that they do not even trust their own memberships to tolerate a strong and consistent vegan message, although there is some evidence that they would be open to such a message: http://www.psyeta.org/sa/sa10.2/lowe.shtml [1]

RY
[1] We have to be careful about such research. This example is a bit dated and largely features a self-selecting sample of vegans and those apparently thinking about being vegan.
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Re: Martin Balluch and Gary Francione

Postby James » Sun Apr 20, 2008 6:45 pm

NathanSchneider wrote:His idea that it doesn't really matter what the masses think or do in their personal lives, while a small elite group of activists try to go to battle with the exploitive industries, is not remotely new or interesting. That is already the norm, and frankly, it is absurd.


This is definitely a view peddled by the new welfarist industry. For if people think that PeTA et al. have some kind of special, elite knowledge about how to abolish animal use that us normal mortals don't have, then they will (a) be much less inclined to question new welfarist tactics and (b) will be more likely to donate money to new welfarist groups (as opposed to by-passing the new welfarist industry and engaging in (empowering) activism themselves). I have ofen heard people say things like that although PeTA's tactics seem senseless, it knows what it is doing; or that we need PeTA because, well, what would we possibly do without it? This kind of attitude is, I think, at least partly the result of the idea that new welfarist groups constitute some kind of elite, or at any rate that these groups are all we need in order to abolish animal exploitation.
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Re: Martin Balluch and Gary Francione

Postby arild » Tue Apr 22, 2008 8:27 pm

What concerns me most is Balluchs claim that abolitionist advocacy is futile. If you work for animal rights, for abolition of animal exploitation, it isn’t specific fundamentalist, as it often is claimed, to have a clear abolitionist focus in your activism. It’s the pragmatic thing to do. It goes at the heart of the matter. if you work for a specific cause it should be put at the frontline, not pushed to the background. When Balluch writes “The campaign should not demand huge changes in society”, it’s as if he asks the animal rights movement to commit suicide. :cry:

Except for that I agree with his points about humans being more social that rational, that animal industries are the enemy of the animal rights movement, and that appeal to compassion might strengthen the cause.

It should not be necessary to point out that “the system” consists of individuals and their actions, there’s no system change without individuals changing their behavior. Balluch makes it seem that that’s not the case. He writes: “To try and convince individual people, person for person, is a tactic which cannot but fail, as long as the system is not changed.” Changing the social system and changing individual behavior is not two different things, it’s two different levels, two different perspectives at the same thing. There is no system change without individuals and their behavior is being changed, mobilizing individuals is what is needed if you want to change the system. Vegan advocacy is about making as huge changes as possible towards that goal, both at an individual and social level. It’s not only “convince individual people, person for person”. Not any more than a welfarist approach.

When we are talking about how to achieve animal rights, what Balluch calls system change is no system change in that direction, it’s some legal change, but no fundamental change in the system of animal exploitation. Veganism on the other hand represents a system change towards animal rights.

Balluch draw a line between the animal industries on the one hand and the public and the government on the other, and says the industries are the only enemy, and presents the public and government as neutral bystanders. But consumers are just as an important part of keeping an industry alive as the producers, it’s two sides of the same coin. And it’s easier for them to shift their support from the animal industries to vegan alternatives, than it is for the producers to stop their activity, they are stuck there, they’re really economic depended on it. The government has neither a neutral position in relation to the industries. We are all part of the industry, and the government’s job is to ensure that it runs smooth.

Even if empathy and compassion is the foundation of morality, and I think it is, that does not make rights ethics irrelevant. Compassionate concerns have to be articulated in a language, and rights ethics is suited partially because human rights thinking is widespread, and because it gives a firm protection of individuals.

But Balluch forgets an important point about what’s the most effective way to do animal advocacy, and that’s creating consciousness about speciesism. It’s easy and people will understand it when you explain the inconsistence in condemning racist and sexist discrimination and accepting species discrimination. Everybody can see this hypocrisy when they get informed about it in an easy and pedagogical way.
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