ARCO's Abolitionists - A Vegan Forum

I was at a demonstration this week and I got talking to someone about their involvement in animal advocacy and the like. She said that she had been involved with various animal groups over the years (most notably she had gone on various animal rescuses) and that she voluteers at an animal sanctuary that cares for some 150 sick/injured/rescued farm animals (she talked about how she absolutely loved the animals there and how she couldn't keep away from them). Then she said she would would never consider getting involved with the main abolisionist group in my state because she just found them much too radical. I responded by saying that I found the group's position to be quite sensible and clear: that accepting and advocating veganism as a moral baseline is the only way that the animal right movement will progress forward. She quickly shot "Well I'm not a vegan okay" (I don't even think she is a vegetarian) and the conversation came to an abrupt halt as she changed the subject. I unfortunatly didn't have another chance to talk to her at length that day.

These are the people that are calling themselves animal advocates; it is sadening but it makes me so much more determined to talk to and inform people about veganism and animal rights. I am definitely going to continue to try my hardest to nurture the subject in conversations with others.

I would be interested in hearing other peoples experiences. Have you have encountered some type of "moral schizophrenia" (to borrow Francione's phrase) when talking with other people? Did you turn the situaiton into something positive and, better still, did you convince them to go vegan? Or did they throw it right back in your face and deny everything?!! Please share!

Excellent thread topic, David.

Here's one of my stories:

I happened to be at a local outdoor art exhibit this summer sponsored by our local humane society. I’m not involved with them at all since they get plenty of financial and other support from the local restaurants and other animal exploiters. The long-time head of the humane society, who has also dedicated herself to our county dog and cat shelter being no-kill, and has a certification from the State of Colorado as a “humane officer”, happened to be walking one of the canines up for adoption.

She stopped by on the walk and introduced “Cooper” to my wife and me. We started talking about animal issues in general. I told her we were vegans and promoted the abolition of all animal exploitation. That was met with silence. I told her briefly about the abolitionist approach, my blog (Unpopular Vegan Essays), and about Gary Francione, his books, and his blog. She seemed mildly interested, but she was more interested in telling us about American Humane, with which she has volunteered significant time out of town on rescue projects. Overall, the woman dedicates her life to rescuing dogs and cats, but isn’t vegan (she said she doesn’t “eat much meat”). I told her how much I supported (agreed with) her rescue work. She was interested in getting vegan dog and cat food for the local “pet” stores, and I told her I could help her with providing information (she’s very connected with the local “pet” store owners and would have far more influence than I in getting them to carry more of it). We exchanged email addresses and went on our way, saying that we should definitely get together for more chats. I was cautiously optimistic.

We exchanged a few emails over the next month, and I sent her links to vegan dog and cat food, PPS, my blog, and GLF’s blog, but it became increasingly clear in our exchange that we had very little in common, or at least that she did not want to confront the 97% of severe animal abuse that she was utterly ignoring or her own related complicit behavior in not being a vegan. I was very polite, but also unequivocal in my communication with her, both in person and in writing. In the end, she stopped emailing. I didn’t send any “follow up” emails because my approach is to avoid pushing the issue on people who apparently don’t want to hear it. My hope is that my limited communication with her occasionally haunts her conscience, and that eventually she’ll come around on her own, even if it only means going vegan.

mountainvegan wrote: My hope is that my limited communication with her occasionally haunts her conscience, and that eventually she’ll come around on her own, even if it only means going vegan.

I think this is a important point. Although, to us, it is obvious that we should be vegan, to most people eating animal products is as natural as breathing air (as Francione has put it). As such, I generally expect the change to veganism to be gradual, beginning with a person's being intermittently troubled by his or her consumption of animal products, evolving to a more constant state of inner anguish over the issue, and ending with an uninterrupted conviction that nonveganism is morally unjustifiable.

mountainvegan wrote: She was interested in getting vegan dog and cat food for the local “pet” stores

Why would a non-vegan support vegan cat food? I get enough grief from fellow vegans about that.

panthera wrote:

mountainvegan wrote: She was interested in getting vegan dog and cat food for the local “pet” stores

Why would a non-vegan support vegan cat food? I get enough grief from fellow vegans about that.

I suppose she's a believer in free-markets and doesn't have a strong opinion on whether cats do well on vegan food. It's ironic to me that some vegans are so opinionated about the vegan cat issue on the side that death MUST be an integral part of a cat's life.

Yesterday evening I (reluctantly) attended mass with my family. There was a large nativity scene re-creation set up by the church called "Walk through Bethlehem" that church-goers were invited to attend after the mass (the recreation included quite a few animals). After listening to the priest talk about living God's love and extending the message of peace and goodwill, it was so disheartening to see people walk through the re-creation and interact with the calves, lambs and other animals and then later see them gorge themselves with sausages and other animal products from the food tent that was set up. What better way to extend your kindness.

This is a bit different (plants, not animals), but betrays a similarly strange mindset.

Some of my housemates wanted to get a Christmas tree. We talked about buying a used one from a thrift store, but the folks who wanted the tree favored a real tree. Something about "celebrating a living thing."

I had to point out the irony in celebrating a living thing by killing it for pleasure. I suggested a tree that we could plant afterwards, but apparently they are not always successful, they are more expensive, and we didn't know where to plant it on our property. So they suggested that by supporting tree farms, we were keeping the land covered in vegetation rather than being developed into buildings. And one farmer explained that he used land that he couldn't raise vegetables on. Plus we could donate money to a program to plant a tree somewhere else, to offset our tree-killing.

Eventually we found a tree that had been ordered but bought, and was harvested off the top of a still-living tree without killing it. And then we also "dumpstered" a tree; i.e., we found a tree that had been thrown out. So now we have two real trees, with less of the ethical dilemma involved in conventional purchases of Christmas trees. I still don't see the advantage of supporting the tradition of cutting down trees for decoration, though.

(We're also "dumpstering" a ton of food, most of which is non-vegan, so I've been having a lot of conversations about the ethics of consuming animal products without supporting the exploitative industries directly. The other two vegans in the group will use dumpstered honey products and occasionally eat dumpstered non-vegan pastries. But happily, they are otherwise staying vegan, much to my relief!)

Hi Panthera,

I read about a comparison for environmental impacts from a plastic tree vs a real tree. The real tree won the contest because it's biodegradable and comes from a renewable source, uses less energy to create and less water, less pollution, etc. Pine trees are fast growing. I don't see the difference in buying a cut baby pine tree or buying cut flowers. The best improvement to be made in the industries that profit from cut flowers and cut trees is make them organic. Can you imagine a plastic Christmas tree remaining perfectly intact for a thousand years? The whole thing about decorating a tree inside the house for the purpose of celebrating the birth of a man who lived two thousand years ago is all a bit odd isn't it. I would say that most people who celebrate Christmas are not even Christians!

Another funny story is about tactics used by local authorities in north America to stop people from chopping down baby pine trees for Christmas around the local environment. Around roadsides they painted the trees with an invisible laquer. Once people cut the tree and took it home, after a few hours the warmth from the house made the tree stink terribly! He he he! What a surprise!

Adding to the last post... I shared lengthy discussion about left-overs with posters at the earthlings.com forum. We agreed that consuming left-over/throw-away food containing animal products was not vegan, nor was wearing second hand leather, etc. for many reasons, which I'm sure you're already aware of.

Yes, I hate the cutting of flowers for decoration. I do send flowers sometimes, but only whole plants meant to be grown. I've never thought about the fact that I'm still supporting that industry, or the fact that I'm exerting complete control over a living thing, even if it's not sentient.

Regarding leftovers/throw away food, I've never been tempted to eat anything that any consumer has already paid for. That is obviously still supporting animal agriculture, even if you're not the one creating the demand. I wavered on dumpstered food, which people say doesn't contribute to demand, since it was never purchased by an end-consumer, unlike leftovers or second-hand items. Then I realized that it has already been bought by the producer and retailer. Their purchases are ultimately driven by consumer demand, of course, but someone is still profiting by exploitation. Of course as far as the animals are concerned, it doesn't matter if anyone profits, anyway.

Ultimately, I just think it's not right to use animal-derived products in any non-survival situation. Interesting discussion, though.