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"Vegan" is a bad word.

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Re: "Vegan" is a bad word.

Postby AnimalFriendly » Tue Oct 30, 2007 4:10 pm

sheepdog wrote:
AnimalFriendly wrote:Reading threads like this makes me want to go full-on buddhist and give up attachments to all things.
Right on! The Abolitionist is essentially one who gives up attachments to all things. Like the Buddhist who has given up attachment to all things, she thereby, as an immediate result, becomes attached to Life, as opposed to the welfarist, who must hold onto his attachments -- to things, to animals -- and as a result destroys Life, as we obviously see by the wholesale destruction of our natural environment. The Abolitionist is so attached to Life that she can even give up her need to use or own animals, because the use and ownership of animals leads to the destruction of Life and the Abolitionist is attached only and completely to Life alone.

Abolition means to leave them alone. Completely. To take no part in the lives of animals. There is no "doing good" for them. Whatever we do to them, is done to them, and it is not for us to decide what is to be done to them, just as it is not for me to decide what is to be done to you. That is the release of all attachments.

I don't know how many people here realize the deep and far-reaching implications of Abolition, both spiritually and practically. It is a radical change of consciousness. You should recognize the significant evolution that you have accomplished.

You're funny. Attachment to life is still an attachment. I'm not even attached to that.

I'm writing a blog for PBS.org, to tie in with an upcoming episode on orphaned cheetahs. I deal a little bit with attachment and how it complicates things in our relationships with animals, and how we should just leave them alone.
Exploiting animals isn't friendly...
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Re: "Vegan" is a bad word.

Postby sheepdog » Sat Nov 03, 2007 6:47 pm

AnimalFriendly wrote:Attachment to life is still an attachment. I'm not even attached to that.
No, attachment to Life is not an attachment. That is the paradox. It is the only attachment which is not an attachment. On the other hand, one can be attached to non-attachment. That is also an attachment.
I'm writing a blog for PBS.org, to tie in with an upcoming episode on orphaned cheetahs. I deal a little bit with attachment and how it complicates things in our relationships with animals, and how we should just leave them alone.
Good for you! Thank you for doing this.
"Him that I love, I wish to be free--even from me." -- Anne Spencer Morrow Lindbergh
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Re: "Vegan" is a bad word.

Postby AnimalFriendly » Mon Nov 05, 2007 5:52 am

sheepdog wrote:
AnimalFriendly wrote:Attachment to life is still an attachment. I'm not even attached to that.
No, attachment to Life is not an attachment. That is the paradox. It is the only attachment which is not an attachment. On the other hand, one can be attached to non-attachment. That is also an attachment.
Whatever you say. I'm not attached to being right. :D

sheepdog wrote:
AnimalFriendly wrote:I'm writing a blog for PBS.org, to tie in with an upcoming episode on orphaned cheetahs. I deal a little bit with attachment and how it complicates things in our relationships with animals, and how we should just leave them alone.
Good for you! Thank you for doing this.
It was my pleasure. It's been posted, btw:

The Cheetah Orphans
Exploiting animals isn't friendly...
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Re: "Vegan" is a bad word.

Postby sheepdog » Mon Nov 05, 2007 4:17 pm

AnimalFriendly wrote:Whatever you say. I'm not attached to being right. :D
Amusing (really!) but disingenuous. It is obvious from your writing that you are attached to doing the right thing. I'm not inclined to joke about this. (OK, so maybe I'm morose). But I challenge you to claim that you are not absolutely attached to doing the right thing whenever you can. I don't believe that you can honestly make that claim. That is being attached to Life. It is what you are left with when you have released all other attachments.

It was my pleasure. It's been posted, btw:

The Cheetah Orphans
I have just read this and all I can say is, "WOW!!!". Fabulous! Absolutely fabulous! I recommend that you read this book: Cat Attacks: True Stories and Hard Lessons from Cougar Country by by Jo Deurbrouck and Dean Miller. I picked it up expecting to find it disagreeable. But in the conclusion the authors make the point that we must either choose to give these animals some place to live even though they eat us when we go there, or see them go extinct. And they bemoaned the fact that the environmentalists failed to help the public deal with this issue. You have done us all a wonderful service in speaking about this problem. Thank you.
"Him that I love, I wish to be free--even from me." -- Anne Spencer Morrow Lindbergh
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Re: "Vegan" is a bad word.

Postby panthera » Tue Nov 06, 2007 3:41 pm

I especially liked the following quotes from the blog entry:
“The Cheetah Orphans” could be construed as a lesson that the animals we favor will always have it better than those we do not. Perhaps one of the key answers to our questions, then, is for us to value animals equally, whether they are cheetahs, ibex, dogs, cows or chickens. They are all worthy of consideration, once you get to know them...
If we can find within ourselves love for a pair of cheetahs, is it such a stretch to think that we could extend this compassion to all beings? We humans must start acknowledging them as individuals, not as mere resources to be conserved.


one thing I struggle with as we discuss the "suffering" emphasis of welfarism is the fact that I find it to be an important part of my own veganism. And I think it's effective to ask people to try to extend their compassion to those they may not see everyday, but could easily imagine.
As Simon King’s own experience aptly demonstrates, people can feel great affection for nonhuman animals that they have come to know. Further outside our circle of immediate concern, affection is much harder to come by.

I think this is an easily amended thing. So I find it difficult to let it go as strategy. As far as our ability to stop doing harm to those individuals, it is relevant, isn't it? Is it that the welfarist conception of minimizing suffering is a shallow one?
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Re: "Vegan" is a bad word.

Postby sheepdog » Wed Nov 07, 2007 2:31 am

panthera wrote:I think this is an easily amended thing. So I find it difficult to let it go as strategy. As far as our ability to stop doing harm to those individuals, it is relevant, isn't it? Is it that the welfarist conception of minimizing suffering is a shallow one?
I don't see why you would want to "let it go". On the contrary, it is the only strategy, in my view. The problem with welfarism is that it ignores most suffering, and thereby allows harm to continue by simply ignoring it. Your strategy does what welfarism does not. Your strategy does not ignore the harm. Abolition is what welfarism is not. It's a good strategy.

The welfarists claim to "minimize suffering". But it's a lie. If they genuinely desired to minimize suffering they would not ignore suffering. It's easy to say you have "minimized suffering" if you only count the suffering you wish to. That strategy only minimizes the welfarists' suffering. It makes them feel better. That's what they really mean by "minimizing suffering".

Using your strategy you would reduce the harm that the welfarists would reduce, and then you would continue to reduce the harm that they would not, wouldn't you? There is no better strategy.
"Him that I love, I wish to be free--even from me." -- Anne Spencer Morrow Lindbergh
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