ARCO's Abolitionists - A Vegan Forum

Well, I know this is old, but I'm new to this forum, and am digging up some old posts to read.

Well, Veganomante, I read your thoughtful (and passionate) posts, and I think there are two broad issues that you seem to talk about - Whether it is alright to sacrifice mention of some core abolitionist tenets if they work as impediments in your getting the message across; The evils (perceived) of Capitalism; and L-I brings in religion.

Well, i think you are right in that we must be flexible with our 'strategy', but if this means we ignore talking about the implications of an abolitionist perspective on certain controversial issues, then it's not the right way to go because we wouldn't be presenting Abolitionism in true form. I think Karin put this point well. I also staunchly believe in Gandhi's words most times: 'Truth, and nothing else'. (Not to imply that you were suggesting 'lying' as an alternative strategy of course)

Dare I say, that you seem to be less than impressed by your fellow beings' intellectual and moral capacities?

Now, some thing that I really did not agree with from your post. You seem to be wishing that capitalism vanished totally, this very moment. Permit me to suggest that you seem to have a rather distorted picture of capitalism, and one that does not leave you too enamoured with this system.

To me, capitalism in essence, means freedom, liberty and equality (Lets remind ourselves: This equality bit will always remain a 'normative' as opposed to a descriptive statement). Either we have all of these, or none. And capitalism is the one system that grants these basic 'rights' to all. Each man is free to do for himself as he pleases, without infringing on the rights of others. Each man living his life on his own terms.
Now, idealistically, this makes total sense. But, why do we have all the oppression and exploitation today in capitalist systems? I think thats a flaw not in capitalism, but in our human culture.

You say there are poor people, and rich people. You say there are 'higher' and 'lower' classes of human beings. Can this be attributed to capitalism?
You say men are today driven by nothing but profit, and this leads them to exploiting their fellow beings, and treating money as an end in itself. Well, I say this is not due to capitalism.

It is our human culture that worships money and profit. We revere wealth and social status. Thats a characteristic of our culture, not of our socio-economic system. Capitalism merely provides us the platform to exercise our choices and preferences - which unfortunately, happen to be profit-based.

What we need is a change in our attitudes and not our system as such. Freeganism as opposed to consumerism. Social concern as opposed to moral apathy. Co-operation as opposed to greed. This is the attitude change we must work for. I believe that a marriage between a capitalist system and these values (that we share, I believe) is not really incompatible, as many people think.

You may be interested in reading more on a related subject in Daniel Quinn's books. I'd highly recommend 'Ishmael', and particularly the sequel 'My Ishmael'. He discusses the virtues of a tribal society,and compares them with the profound psychological deprivation and hardships we are subjecting ourselves to by living in the current social system that worships wealth, efficiency, and materialism over 'human concerns'.

As for religion, I believe it is the most powerful tool ever invented by man to keep the masses under control (and that also means ignorant, and intellectually depraved). I am an atheist, but I don't usually talk about it with others, since it is a very personal matter.

As for its implications in Vegan outreach, I think there is an alternative way to three that L-I refers to, and which I think makes sense. A capitalist approach. What I usually do I tell people that animals have no religion - atleast not one that we can perceptibly comprehend - so we shouldn't force our religious beliefs upon animals by appropriating their participation in our rituals or food habits (Turkey for Christmas) among other ways. When a Hindu meets a Christian, neither of them presumes to force his belief on the other, irrespective of whether or not they like each other or each other's beliefs. But when we see an animal, we immediately think of what our religious books tell us to do about them. (Hindu worship the 'cow' as a supremely revered Goddess. It would sound good if it didn't lead to the deaths and torture of millions of cows and their calves)

Speciesism and religion are very intricately connected, since for most people it is religion that provides their speciesist foundations. I think this foundation can be cracked by talking about how it is inconsistent for us to force our beliefs upon animals when we don't do it in dealing with other humans - as opposed to using the Bible or other text as 'just a guide' to dealing with other animals.

The one problem I see with L-I's method is that it sends across the unintended message that animals are still sub-servient to humans, and that we or our religions have some authority over them.

Regards,
KP

P.S: This was lengthier than I expected. I'll keep them shorter from next time.